Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Week 5: Voices

Precedent

Giving credit where credit is due is a large theme in the arts. The voice of those who came before us is ever present in day-to-day life, but we rarely stop to ponder and respect the precedents that made innovation possible. It would be impossible for the architects of the Middle Ages to build their greatest masterpieces without the innovations that came before them. Below I have set some space to appreciate where structures came from.

The Column- The Arch-The Vault
Aisle Contruction- The Arcade Post- Cruck Construction- Hammer Beam Construction
“Distances of span were governed by materials and construction technique, … therefore, if the distance was too great it was essential that intermediate support be included.” (Blakemore 73)


The Transverse Vault- The Dome- The Tripartite Plan (Hearth Porch Court)- The Roman Bath
The Basilica




The Basilica of Saint Peter is steeped with architectural precedents. The Basilica features a narthex that includes the tripartite plan, Vaults at the intersection of the nave and transept, domes, and a series of hallways that are similar not only to the baths of Rome but the earlist building form- the megaron!(5)

(6) Interior of St. Peter's Rome features stunning mosaic interior work, (mosaics seen earlier in Roman Baths!) the pendentive form, the arch and vault, the occulus and the rib vault. This stunning interior (completed by Michelangelo) would not have been possible without the innovations of many previous artists.

The Basilica- The Dome
The Carolingian Church, The Norman Building Style, The Gothic Cathedral

Duality

"Commodity Firmness and Delight" Are all important factors in architectural design- this much we know. Often, when a large shift in history happens- one of these factors takes more importance on than the others. In the case of the Early motte castle- Firmness and Commodity became the focus factors. "Atop the motte-- a natural hillock or heaped up earth-- a wooden tower structure was built, serving both as a place of refuge and a resident of the local lord..."(Roth 305)



(7)These early castles might not have been the prettiest place to live, but they certainly fulfilled their purpose. As cities died with the fall of the Roman Empire, the architects focus shifted to the countryside and how to best serve the needs of their patrons.

Moments

There is no greater experience as a musician, than to perform well, in an acoustically sound room as a part of a large group. A close second to this experience is sitting in the audience, watching this experience happen. That said, if composition and performance do not work together, the above experience would never happen. Composers for monastery choirs in the Middle Ages composed music that would create moments for the congregants in their audiences.
Of course, my scanner pooped out when I went to scan in the copy of this excerpt from the Musica enchiriadis. But-the organization of the organum is still present. Because the interval between notes is constant and the scale has no diminished (crunchy) qualities, vibrations within the cathedral would resonate consistently and without dissonance.
The Musica enchiriadis (Music handbook) was one of the foremost musicians handbooks used in the Middle Ages. This treatise stressed the importance of “singing together” to create polyphony in the performance. The music in this treatise also used scale systems of parallel fifths, creating open, resonant chords that carried well in the open space of the Gothic Cathedral(1) .


Presence
"In the new phase into which medieval architecture mow passed, the presence of light, the symbol of God's Divine Grace, became the preeminent symbol; the church building had to become transparent, and when it did so it as no longer Romanesque but Gothic." (Roth 323)

In addition to the creation of the moment, a presence of higher power could be felt in the florid organum of the mass chants of the Middle Ages. One of the most moving works that I can think of was composed by a particular group of musicians in residence at the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris. Leonin’s Viderunt omnes was clearly written for the experience of the congregation at Notre Dame. The work is nearly three times as long as works for Christmas Day mass that came before it (2).

(4)This is one of my absolute favorite pictures of the Cathedral at Notre Dame. It is not picture of the interior (which I spoke about above) but I believe it is the best (or most cliche) picture I have seen to evoke the feeling of a greater presence in a cathedral.

It is with much sadness that I realize that I can not post an actual clip of the Viderunt omnes on this blog without getting in serious copyright trouble. SO- I recommend anyone who is interested to go on Naxos (as a UNCG student you have an account that gives you unlimited access) and look up the group Tonus Peregrinus. They have a stunning recording of this work on their cd “Leonin, Perotin- Sacred Music from the Notre-Dame Cathedral.”


Metric
“The Gothic Church…was a monument that seems to dwarf the man who inters it, for space, light, structure, and the plastic effects of masonry are organized to produce a visionary scale. There is no fixed set of proportions in the parts, … and no standard relationship between solid and void.” (3)
The people of the High Middle Ages were pushed by a new found respect for earthly life. Roth calls this appreciation, "emphatically aspired to heaven." Language and art served as unifiers for the scattered nation-states (much like the meter does in Europe today). Nation-states develop their own unique styles for design, but that is not to say that they don't have one major thing in common: DESIGN. The fact that in this period- there was a forward push again (after the devestating fall of the Roman Empire) is very important for the re-growth of what was for generations- the Empire of all Empires.

Synthesis

Concepts for architecture and surface decorations seen in the early Christian church may have grown from the duality that can be observed in the Roman baths. The Roman Baths served many purposes and were chosen and laid out with a plan in mind. Roth explains that "Constantine and church officials looked to secular buildings...the basilica has originally been devised for public gatherings and its symbolic connotation, having to do with the equitable administration of earthly justice, was positive..."(Roth 80). This duality in function can be observed in the social classes serviced and the activities that take place in the Roman baths. The baths served as a bathhouse and meeting forum for upper middle and lower class citizens.

Our discussions this week have reinforced the idea that the Middle Ages might not have been the completely dark era that they are made out to be. Working with the precedent set by the basilica form and the dome form the basic building block of the pendentive arose. This innovation gave architects the ability to build buildings with ever increasing size and splendor.

These churches and monasteries were set on a metric scale that sought to bring heaven to the earth. There is an imminent presence of something greater in these great cathedrals. Geometric study from the movie on the cathedral of Amiens suggests that the basic measurement of the cathedral was the human foot- yet the cathedral effectively transports its inhabitants to a world that could only be described as of another world.

The experience of mass in a Gothic Cathedral is one that can be shared as a member of any class. The architecture is a common element that brings together people to share in truly special moments. History is created when a historian is moved to remember a moment in time. Without the passion that comes from experience, our history would be and endless stretch of dispassionate wasteland.



1. Musica enchiriadis and Scolia enchiriadis, trans. With intro and notes by Raymond Erickson, ed. Claude V. Palisca (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1995)

2. Burkholder, Peter H and Claude V. Palisca. “Leonin: Viderunt omnes, organum duplum.” Northon Anthology of Western Music Volume One. New York, New York: Norton, 2006. 67-76.

3. Page 301: Robert Branner, Gothic Architecture, 1961. Quoted in Roth. Understanding Architecture

4. Photograph from the Portfolio Blog of Adam Goldberg. Posted September 11, 2007. Accessed February 24, 2009.

5. /EarlyChristianByzantine/BasilicaPlanChurches/oldstpetersplan.gif> Cited as information from http://www.coco.cc.az.us

6. Interior of St. Peter's. Photograph by John Heseltine 1992. Accessed February 24, 2009

7. Artists Rendering of Ammanford Castle by Richard Jones 2002. Accessed February 24, 2009.

Thursday, February 19, 2009

Lucas Oil Stadium

Building:
Lucas Oil Stadium
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Architect:

"The stadium was designed by HKS of Dallas, Texas, with significant assistance from local design firms such as A2S04 and Browning Day Mullins Dierdorf of Indianapolis and other Indiana design and engineering consultants."

About the Stadium:

You might have noticed by now that I am not an Interior architecture major. My double major is in Psychology and Music; that said, a huge part of my life since becoming a music major has been Drum and Bugle Corps.

In August 2006 the Drum and Bugle Corps International organization announced that they were officially moving their headquarters to Indianapolis, Indiana. A contract with for ten years of contiguous finals hosting, with an expected ten million dollar a year profit, secured Drum Corps International a seat on the design committee for the new stadium.

Lucas Oil Stadium’s retractable roof was designed with many purposes in mind. This retractable roof was designed with a first-of-its-kind Superstructure support system. The design allows for the roof to be opened or closed in under eleven minutes. The retractable panels open into “stacks” over the building so that there is absolutely no overhang; minimizing the “dome effect” that is typically created when one hundred and twenty-one musicians play as loudly as they can at one time.

For the football fans, Lucas oil has another “first-of-its kind” technology. The stadium has stationed two 97x53 foot, state of the art, 2-D instant playback screens on the sidelines.
The Lucas Oil Stadium project has been fully supported by Indianapolis and Marion County. As such, it will be available for lease to anyone who can afford it. The spacious concourses, meeting rooms, 167 room hotel and indoor outdoor dome can be configured to seat anywhere from 15,000-65,000 seats.

After a huge letdown in the summer of 2008, the stadium is finally open and will play host to the 2009 World Championships of Drum and Bugle Corps International.





Week 4- On with the Show!

source

A source is defined by its ability to inspire and inform future generations. Thus, a source is the predecessor to the archetype. The Romans, though not the first to borrow from sources outside their own society, were the first to master the interpretation of outside sources as guides to the planning of their cities and structures.
Greece served as a source for many different entities in Roman society. Sadly, and somewhat satirically, most people today don't know the difference between Roman and Greek. Who really remembers which is which, Jupiter or Zeus? I do! I hint I always found helpful was to remember that the Greeks saw their deities as much more powerful than the Romans. Romans diffused power into families and households, allowing for familial traditions and ancestral genius altars (Blakemore 49). While the genius was still highly respected, and had it own specific space in the "domus" (49), it would hardly have been acceptable in Greek tradition.

archetype : prototype : hybrid

I was really excited to write about these three prompts as they have played a huge role in my life. Not necessarily as they pertain to architecture- but as they pertain to musical instruments. Then again, when do any words apply to one fine art and note the other…Never! Oh, did I mention that I am a music major, and I play the hybrid of all hybrid instruments, the viola!
When I think archetype-prototype-hybrid I think of the progression of greatness. An archetype is like the rough draft. The archetypal viola is stunningly documented in a beautiful combination of music and architecture on the dome of the Santuario di Saronno. This some features a beautiful fresco of a concert of angels.

Full painting of the fresco of angels. Picture by artist Gaudenzio Ferrari. Giclee print from allposters.com

If you look closely- you will notice that one of the shoulder held stung instruments is a bit chubby- it commonly thought to be a viola!
Prototypes come about when an artist recognizes that they are building on ideas. Prototype typically denotes some kind of large change or addition to a concept that changes it enough to rename the concept.
Hybrids are the best of both concepts combined; the final product of a series of works that have recognized former strengths and weaknesses of a concept and created a final project that will best suit a concept’s intended commodity, firmness and delight!

My boyfriend's-mother’s wedding- Did I mention my instrument is over 200 years old. It is a Anton Hornsteiner viola from Mittenwald, Germany c.1762!!

entourage

Princeton’s wordnet search engine defines an entourage as “a group following and attending to some important person.”
Large entourages could be found gathering in almost any city of any great emipre. Greek city plans featured Agoras as marketplaces that could be used for any gathering of people for shopping, political meetings, or general soap-boxing.
Our study the “wu-wu” and arch statues in markets or forums of ancient Roman cities could have a large impact on the entourage that any given roman icon would be able to amass. "The forum thus served much the same funtion as the Greek agora" (Roth 253). Roth credits Julius Cesar for the forum of all forums, the Forum Romanum(254).

hierarchy

Hierarchy is the organization or stratification of any objects or people that place significance on a escalating system of worth or value. That is a fancy way of saying- hierarchies happen when things ascertain value. In the particular case of design, social hierarchy is clearly and repetitively demonstrated in the size and quality of both interior and structural architecture.
The upper echelon of Roman city planners (as PLL pointed out in class) very smartly used "panem et circences" or "bread and circuses" (from the Roman poet Juvenal) in their city planning to distract citizens from any political problems and command unwavering support and social obedience.

order

Order is a word that I have had to learn to use. I must admit than when I started this course, columns were not the first things that came to mind when a person mentioned order. The Greeks used columns in their temples as early as 1050 BCE (Roth 230). Roth is particularly poetic in his description of the origin (or SOURCE) of the column. “Earlier Ritual offerings to the gods had been made in sacred groves, with the trees decorated with the sacrificial offerings. It is believed that the temple, with its surrounding colonnade, was an attempt to recreate the sacred grove. The columns became those decorated trees, and the many parts of the Doric, Ionic and later Corinthian orders were named for the actions performed in these rituals.” (Roth 230)

In Conclusion...
this week has been all about the learning process. Egyptians served as a source of structurally sound architecture for the Greeks. The Greeks build the first temples, bringing ritual indoors and serving as the archetype for the great structures of the Roman Emipre. The architectural achievements of the Romans in turn, served as a prototype for almost every society that came after them(Blakemore 47). Entourage is a bit of an outlyer to this progression. The entourage so to say, "made the man." Empires could not stand if not for the flock of followers who vowed allegiance to their rulers, many of the great buildings we studied this week would not have been built if it were not for the existence of the first great empires of Greek and Rome. History has yet again, shown itself to be circtuitous and generalizable.

Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Week Three Opus

Life’s an Opus
The syllabus for this class describes an opus as a musical work, especially one of a numbered series by the same composer arranged to show the order in which they were written or cataloged; a creative piece of work in any field of the arts. As a Music/Psychology major, I am uniquely predispoitioned to view my life as a growing opus. I strive to take lessons each and every experience that I encounter. I seek new experiences, in hopes that they will bring new color to the story of my life. As I have a very limited background in architecture and an extensive background in music, this week’s prompts took on a different meaning for me than for many of my classmates.

Observation-Speculation- Deduction
In an attempt to make my opus a little less jarring I have formatted my response to each of the term prompts using the suggested format from our lecture. Observations include but are not limited to technical definitions and examples from class. Speculations present a use of the term that is relevant to my life (i.e. not from class) and deductions tie the concepts together.
The symphonic form makes use of sections and transitions. Modes are presented and developed through theme and variations. These are terms I understand and conceptualize with ease. Hopefully, this ease of knowledge will translate across arts and make this Opus of my life a bit more intellectually stimulating…

Scale
Le Corbusier wrote that had he “stood six feet two inches tall, his architecture might have been significantly different” (Roth 75). Scale is, by definition, how big or small something is. This seems a simple concept, until one realizes that no two people are exactly the same size, therefore no two people have exactly the same perception of any object. To an ant, an inch may be a mile and a mile, an eternity.
I often seek aide from my incredible sister in law Val. She is not only smart, but has a background in architecture and design that puts mine to shame. After completing her BA in Architecture at Yale and a MA in Product design at Stanford, she truly sees the world in a different light.

When speaking with her about scale (and how much I really didn’t see a point to it if I was not the one building the building) she showed me the above picture from her recent trip to Olympic park.

She reminded me that I should think of scale on many different levels. Depending on my view (see multiple viewpoints in previous blog posting) Olympic park has many different meanings. That scale should be discussed on multiple levels is a concept we have discussed at length in class, but I have yet to link think of that concept literally. I love the conceptual; items have meanings from individual- room- building- community-region-nation-continent-world and universe perspectives. In this situation I missed the obvious connection to my life for the love of the philosophical. Scale may be affected by one’s position, but in reality, it is standard and mathematical. A person may see the statue in Olympic Park differently from a room’s length away and a region’s length away, but the statue is still the same size.

So all of that was needed to me to make one CRUCIAL conclusion. Scale is not perception, which is to say that the meaning of an object is not its scale. Now that that is finished- it seems so simple- yet so profound!

Unity and Boundaries
I tied the concept of unity and boundaries very strongly to Egyptian culture. It seems to me that you cannot have one without the other. An Egyptian’s life is a never-ending cycle- yet there is a clear division between life and death. Roth presents the concept of the Egyptian soul as having four sections, the ka, the ba, the Akh, and the Sekham (Roth 192). This creates an odd tension for me; was an Egyptian’s life focused on death, or was an Egyptian’s death focused on maintaining life? I am not qualified to answer such a loaded question, but I can clearly observe that there is clearly a boundary here. The change between living and dead creates a pause in the cycle if not a completely new cycle itself.

Unity : Boundaries :: Continuity : Change. Everyone in this class most likely has fond memories of word exercises that were repetitively pounded into ones brain in preparation for the SAT’s. Below is a sketch that helped me focus on the continuities and changes that took place between Egypt and Greece. Egyptian society is represented within a circle. The aspects of society are inextricable from each other. Greece is represented on the scale. A line balance, the aspects of society are held apart from each other (physically) but have the ability to balance against each other and create a perfect balance.

Section
Oh how I love terms that can refer to a million unrelated things which are all worthy of discussion. For example:
- The aedicule. Enough said-it is a super simple concept that if one tried to name all of the situations of, would surely go insane!
- Egypt is split into two sections by the Nile River- The section for the land and the section for the dead.
- Greece is broken into sections that are reasonably difficult to travel between due to its mountainous land.
- Burial housing projects- called mastabas- were mini units that can be seen in larger architecture. Is it a coincidence that Zoser’s great pyramid started out as a mastaba? (Roth 195).
-Egyptian Pharaohs sequestered their living quarters from those of their subjects in life and death. They were certainly powerful as Pharaohs of the land but they did not live among the people.
- Cities in ancient Greece were organized as one large town that often sat on high, rocky mountains (Roth 222) and existed as a section of the larger empire of Greece.
- Cities the first Greek buildings developed a sectioned form. This three-section form of porch, court and hearth can be seen
-in Grecian buildings themselves
-in the city plan for the Acropolis
-in Modern day house planning
- In the City of Miletos (Roth 225) as it was mapped by Hippodamus in c479. The plan divided the city into three distinct sections, the agora, the sacred precinct and the residential corridor.
-The Acropolis- Parthenon-Propylia- Erechteion- Temple of Athena Nika (Roth 233).
-What is the background and history of the sectional sofa? Why is it called a sectional when it is really one large sofa?


Vignette
In our study of the History and Theory of design I hope to be able to create a huge vignette. It is undeniable that changes happen as time passes, yet these changes rarely come overnight. As they say, “Rome was not built in a night.” It is true, Rome was not built in a night; there was not a day that man woke up and conceptualized building. The software program Photoshop alternately describes the “vignette,” tool as a “soft fade.” So, throughout this class I hope to be able to conceptualize history of design as a series of vignettes; whilst a community may be presented in a bubble, the edges are not hard, they fade into a space from which the next vignette in time will stem.

To bring out a more artsy, visual connection…it is common to view history like this
We try and try to memorize build after building, date after date. We view every event as its own rock. But….
A single addition can create a ripple that blurs out the division of the rocks. The focus now is on the ripple that stretches over and beyond each rock, they are now the bed of stream rather than individual stones. History is a rock bed that can be seen in a totally new light if you skip a stone across the surface.


Notes:

Rock pictures borrowed from the wedding album of Valerie Maltz Green. The rock bed is located at the Carneros Inn in Napa Valley, California.

Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Week Two Blog Entry


The word illuminate is, in mind, closely tied to the great novelist Virginia Woolf. In her book A Room of One’s Own she repeatedly comments on how a great author has the ability to tell a story with such integrity that all sides of the story are seen. The reader will be given the ability to see clearly all the nooks and crannies of a situation, as if a candle had been held at the precise angle to chase away all shadow.

Roth describes the New Grange tomb in Dublin, Ireland as having a particularly poetic use of illumination. When designing the tomb, the early architects deliberately oriented the building southeast. The entrance to the tomb is blocked by a curbstone. The elements of this burial mound work together so that once a year, on the winter solstice, a beam of sunlight can pass through the entire tomb and strike against the farthest back wall. This slit was left open after the completion of the tomb and interment of the dead to represent a line of communication between the living and the dead. (Roth 171).

Material
has tied into multiple sections of our History and Theory lectures over the past week. The first of our discussions on material culture brought out many interesting ideas about the significance that people place on objects and how it can differ based on the interpretation of the historian who is studying that object. Roth summarizes many of the theories on interpretation of material culture saying “Architecture is the crystallization of ideas, a physical representation of human thought and aspiration, a record of the beliefs and values of the culture that produces it” (Roth 159).

Later, we looked at the significance of material not as a possession but as a building tool. Early societies living in the first cities did not have the technology to create synthetic building materials. They built structurally sound buildings utilizing only the materials that were readily available to them. The main building materials used by early humans as we discussed in class are (a) skin over structure of timber or bone, (b) natural environment painting, and (c) stone on earth alignments and patterns.

The first sedentary humans used permanent shelters as a means of protecting themselves from the harsh European climate. They utilized skin, mammoth skull, stone and rocks to create huts that could withstand wind and safely enclose hearth fires (Roth 162).
















The Terra Amata in Nice, France. In Roth p.162 from Henry de Lumley, “A Paleolithic Camp at Niece,” Scientific American 220 (

Later, societies in the Mesopotamian region built pyramids and temples of mud brick and columns of sandstone.

These early buildings and statues often served idiomatic purposes in addition to providing shelter. In class we discussed the Ziggurat of Ur-Nammu, the Teotihuhacan, The Great Wall of China, the Wedding Rocks at Futamigara and the Adena Great Serpent mound as examples of designed buildings in the first cities.

In the beginning, I had problems wrapping my mind around the idea of the wedding rocks as a building.















http://www.yamasa.org/japan/english/destinations/mie/futamigaura.html


At the top of the tallest rock is a temple. I can see the temple being designed and thought out. It has boundaries and had to be created by moving and placing materials deliberately. But the concept of the building incorporating the rocks (both rocks) was difficult for me to grasp. It is odd for me to think of the rocks as a part of the building. They are roped together, but does that make them a building? I still need some time to ponder whether or not I put the Wedding Rocks in the same category as the Ziggurat.

That brings me to my final term, commodity, firmness and delight. We discussed these three at length over the first to weeks of class. I am quite certain that I will be able to tie many future talks on design back to these principles. Sir Henry Wotten paraphrased Vitruvius saying that architecture must provide “commodity, firmness, and delight”(Roth 11).

Delight, is something that, as a music major, I constantly strive to provide for others. Susan K. Langer is quoted in Roth saying”…but music is not melted architecture.” Without good architecture, making great music is difficult, if not impossible. The experience of playing music in a well-designed hall is enough to convince you that music can be melted from architecture. The text has many examples of how building can be “done wrong” and emphasizes the importance of architecture in acoustics and sound. The text, when interpreted, supports my view, rather than Langer’s. If you think of melting as a product of immense heat, it can be said that melted objects radiate heat.















My good friend-Lindsey Eskins- is able to extract music from architecture when playing marimba in a well designed hall- UNCG School of Music- Organ Hall

If I let this blog wander with my brain, I come to think about musicians who “suffer” from synesthesia. That is, they see pitch as color. If there are humans capable of processing music as color (which there are) how much of a stretch is it to think that there are also humans who see music as lines and shapes. Architecture is, at is most basic, a series of aedicules, lines and shapes linked together like Lincoln logs. I believe that investigation would show that music could create architecture when a very special mind is processing those combined stimuli.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now it is time for me to make a huge jump that I do not believe can be made with any tact. I continue on to my musings on Stonehenge and the great stone structures of the first groups of stratified, stationary people. I cannot help but think of how many times I have referred to certain life situations as making me feel as though I was “beating my head against a wall.” The first builders and architects seem to have bridged a gap that made great changes in the early cultures of the world.

How did the first “architect” effect the decision of a group of people to decide to stay in one place? Roth jumps this gap from mobile to sedentary with little more artfulness than I did just now! He leaps from Neanderthal houses to great stone structures, surely there had to be some middle step for early builders to learn how to use stone structures. I cannot imagine trying to lift and place the lintels in Stonehenge. How did the designers figure out how big a pulley to use? Was the stone allowed to crush a builder or two in a trial and error process, or can smaller stone structures be found? Was there ever a point where the commissioner of these great works decided that the cost was just too great? Did the early designers feel themselves beating their heads against their grandiose ideas?

The conclusion to Roth’s chapter on the first cities suggests that there was a progression from African tribal societies to European sedentary cities, but it is little more than a statement. In this section he mentions the mastery of fire as a reason for groups of people’s “exodus” from Africa (Roth 177). I think that this obsession with harnessing fire can be seen still today. I grew up in the south. I also had the privilege of always living in relatively large houses. I cannot think of a single one of them that was not focused on a central hearth. Even in Atlanta, Georgia, where cold is not a major weather force, the fireplace was there. My condo in Greensboro has an enormous stone fireplace, in three years I have never used it. This leads me to believe that the mastery of fire has mad more of an impact than I might have thought. Hundreds of thousands of years after he first dwellings were built; we are still putting fireplaces at the center of our houses.















-Stone fireplace in my condo (built in 2000)- Isn’t my nephew cute!

I commend you for making it to the end of this blog entry. I have found it amazingly difficult to make clear, artful transitions between large sections and concepts, which has most probably made reading this an arduous experience. I suppose that writing a blog such as this is a skill that I will have to work to master.